But it didn't happen. So if all a tree could do was split air to get carbon, you'd have a tree the size of a tulip. ROBERT: This is very like if you had a little helmet with a light on it. Except in this case instead of a chair, they've got a little plant-sized box. Would they stay in the tree, or would they go down to the roots? And the salivation equivalent was the tilt of the plant? Well, I asked Suzanne about that. I'm 84. Again. No. ROBERT: So that voice belongs to Aatish Bhatia, who is with Princeton University's Council on Science and Technology. Yeah. That's amazing and fantastic. ROBERT: Now the plants if they were truly dumb, they'd go 50/50. JENNIFER FRAZER: In the little springtail bodies there were little tubes growing inside them. JAD: And the plant still went to the place where the pipe was not even in the dirt? Good. Like, how can a plant -- how does a plant do that? Yes. Listen to one of these podcasts: (Read the summaries and choose the one you want) Radiolab - Update: CRISPR Radiolab - Cellmates Radiolab - Shrink Radiolab - From Tree to Shining Tree Radiolab - Antibodies Part 1: CRISPR Radiolab - Galapagos Radiolab - Smarty Plants Radiolab - Super Cool For the main post please include: Title Monica's work has actually gotten quite a bit of attention from other plant biologists. If a plant doesn't have a brain what is choosing where to go? LARRY UBELL: It's not leaking. Well, I have one thing just out of curiosity ROBERT: As we were winding up with our home inspectors, Alvin and Larry Ubell, we thought maybe we should run this metaphor idea by them. You have to understand that the cold water pipe causes even a small amount of water to condense on the pipe itself. ROBERT: That would be sugar-minerals-sugar-minerals-sugar-minerals-sugar-minerals-sugar-minerals-sugar-minerals-sugar-minerals-sugar-minerals. You found exactly what the plants would do under your circumstances which were, I don't know, let's say a bit more tumultuous than mine. Wait a second. ROBERT: I have even -- I can go better than even that. SUZANNE SIMARD: It'll go, "Ick. You got somewhere to go? He's looking up at us quite scared and very unhappy that he was covered in SUZANNE SIMARD: And toilet paper. Different kind of signal traveling through the soil? Actually that's good advice for anyone. ROBERT: She says one of the weirdest parts of this though, is when sick trees give up their food, the food doesn't usually go to their kids or even to trees of the same species. ROBERT: Eventually, she came back after ROBERT: And they still remembered. If you get too wrapped up in your poetic metaphor, you're very likely to be misled and to over-interpret the data. ROBERT: And the salivation equivalent was the tilt of the plant? It would be all random. We were so inconsistent, so clumsy, that the plants were smart to keep playing it safe and closing themselves up. So Monica moves the fans to a new place one more time. But now we know, after having looked at their DNA, that fungi are actually very closely related to animals. I mean, to say that a plant is choosing a direction, I don't know. From Tree to Shining Tree. Just a boring set of twigs. ROBERT: And that's where the fungus comes in. He's the only springtail with a trench coat and a fedora. Like trees of different species are supposed to fight each other for sunshine, right? And it's more expensive. I think there are some cases where romanticizing something could possibly lead you to some interesting results. No, I don't because she may come up against it, people who think that intelligence is unique to humans. ROBERT: They shade each other. Is that what -- is that what this? Like, I don't understand -- learning, as far as I understand it, is something that involves memory and storage. Gebel. They shade each other out. And every day that goes by, I have less of an issue from the day before. So that's where these -- the scientists from Princeton come in: Peter, Sharon and Aatish. ROBERT: So I think what she would argue is that we kind of proved her point. SUZANNE SIMARD: So we know that Douglas fir will take -- a dying Douglas fir will send carbon to a neighboring Ponderosa pine. JAD: So you couldn't replicate what she saw. In my brain. This is Ashley Harding from St. John's, Newfoundland, Canada. And, you know, my job was to track how these new plantations would grow. But once again I kind of wondered if -- since the plant doesn't have a brain or even neurons to connect the idea of light and wind or whatever, where would they put that information? On the outside of the pipe. Because after dropping them 60 times, she then shook them left to right and they instantly folded up again. So we figured look, if it's this easy and this matter of fact, we should be able to do this ourselves and see it for ourselves. I mean, you've heard that. It's okay. LARRY UBELL: All right, if she's going to do this experiment, most likely she's going to use cold water. I mean, Jigs was part of the family. Back and forth. I mean, can you remember what you were doing a month ago? It's as if the individual trees were somehow thinking ahead to the needs of the whole forest. Her use of metaphor. Sorry! ", So the deer's like, "Oh, well. But maybe it makes her sort of more open-minded than -- than someone who's just looking at a notebook. Smarty Plants. Finally, one time he did not bring the meat, but he rang the bell. ROBERT: So if all a tree could do was split air to get carbon, you'd have a tree the size of a tulip. On our knees with our noses in the ground, and we can't see anything. One time, the plant literally flew out of the pot and upended with roots exposed. And we were all like, "Oh, my goodness! JENNIFER FRAZER: Finally, one time he did not bring the meat, but he rang the bell. MONICA GAGLIANO: Yeah, I know. What happened to you didn't happen to us. MONICA GAGLIANO: Not really. Yeah, and I have done inspections where roots were coming up through the pipe into the house. Fan first, light after. And she goes into that darkened room with all the pea plants. ROBERT: That there was a kind of a moral objection to thinking it this way. I think there are some cases where romanticizing something could possibly lead you to some interesting results. And the tubes branch and sometimes they reconnect. MONICA GAGLIANO: Like for example, my plants were all in environment-controlled rooms, which is not a minor detail. Or maybe slower? LARRY UBELL: I'm not giving my age. Wait. So they figured out who paid for the murder. This happens to a lot of people. Today, Robert drags Jad along ona parade for the surprising feats of brainless plants. Yeah, it might run out of fuel. They still did not close when she dropped them. Yes, in a lot of cases it is the fungus. Radiolab is supported in part by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation, enhancing public understanding of Science and Technology in the modern world. This is by the way, what her entire family had done, her dad and her grandparents. MONICA GAGLIANO: The idea was to drop them again just to see, like, the difference between the first time you learn something and the next time. The show is known for innovative sound design, smashing information int The bell, the meat and the salivation. ROBERT: What's its job? If you get too wrapped up in your poetic metaphor, you're very likely to be misled and to over-interpret the data. They will send out a "Oh, no! In 1997, a couple of scientists wrote a paper which describes how fungi JENNIFER FRAZER: Have developed a system for mining. But maybe it makes her sort of more open-minded than -- than someone who's just looking at a notebook. If a nosy deer happens to bump into it, the mimosa plant Curls all its leaves up against its stem. These guys are actually doing it." And then Monica would ROBERT: Just about, you know, seven or eight inches. LATIF: Wait. And then all of a sudden, she says she looks down into the ground and she notices all around them where the soil has been cleared away there are roots upon roots upon roots in this thick, crazy tangle. Like, from the trees perspective, how much of their sugar are they giving to the fungus? JENNIFER FRAZER: It is! So what do we have in our ears that we use to hear sound? Nothing delicious at all. Then of course because it's the BBC, they take a picture of it. JAD: The part where the water pipe was, the pipe was on the outside of the pot? Why is this network even there? ROBERT: She found that the one stimulus that would be perfect was MONICA GAGLIANO: A little fan. ROBERT: Now that's a very, you know, animals do this experiment, but it got Monica thinking. Wait a second. Like the bell for the dog. LINCOLN TAIZ: It's a very interesting experiment, and I really want to see whether it's correct or not. Couldn't it just be an entirely different interpretation here? Five, four, three, two, one, drop! Nothing happened at all. ROBERT: Then of course because it's the BBC, they take a picture of it. Well, maybe. JAD: So you couldn't replicate what she saw. But it was originally done with -- with a dog. I mean, couldn't it just be like that? The problem is is with plants. JAD: So they just went right for the MP3 fake water, not even the actual water? It doesn't ROBERT: I know, I know. That was my reaction. It should have some. With when they actually saw and smelled and ate meat. But We did catch up with her a few weeks later. Now, you might think that the plant sends out roots in every direction. She's done three experiments, and I think if I tell you about what she has done, you -- even you -- will be provoked into thinking that plants can do stuff you didn't imagine, dream they could do. And the tree happens to be a weeping willow. ROBERT: And that's just the beginning. And with these two stimuli, she put the plants, the little pea plants through a kind of training regime. Well, okay. And if you don't have one, by default you can't do much in general. ROBERT: So that voice belongs to Aatish Bhatia, who is with Princeton University's Council on Science and Technology. So I'd seal the plant, the tree in a plastic bag, and then I would inject gas, so tagged with a -- with an isotope, which is radioactive. ALVIN UBELL: The tree will wrap its roots around that pipe. So that's where these -- the scientists from Princeton come in: Peter, Sharon and Aatish. ANNIE MCEWEN: What was your reaction when you saw this happen? ROBERT: She says what will happen under the ground is that the fungal tubes will stretch up toward the tree roots, and then they'll tell the tree SUZANNE SIMARD: With their chemical language. JAD: Yeah, absolutely. She says we now know that trees give each other loans. The magnolia tree outside of our house got into the sewer pipes, reached its tentacles into our house and busted the sewage pipe. So what they're saying is even if she's totally sealed the pipe so there's no leak at all, the difference in temperature will create some condensation on the outside. ROBERT: And some of them, this is Lincoln Taiz LINCOLN TAIZ: I'm a professor emeritus of plant biology at UC Santa Cruz. Then she takes the little light and the little fan and moves them to the other side of the plant. Jad and Robert, they are split on this one. ROBERT: Oh. Like, how can a plant -- how does a plant do that? ROBERT: She determined that you can pick a little computer fan and blow it on a pea plant for pretty much ever and the pea plant would be utterly indifferent to the whole thing. Me first. But what -- how would a plant hear something? Yes, we are related. Okay. Seasonally. Jigs is in trouble!" ROBERT: Now, you might think that the plant sends out roots in every direction. The water is still in there. Don't interrupt. ROBERT: It won't be a metaphor in just a moment. Listen to Radiolab: Smarty Plants, an episode of Wilderness Radio, easily on Podbay - the best podcast player on the web. Monica's work has actually gotten quite a bit of attention from other plant biologists. ], Dylan Keefe is our Director of Sound Design. It's doing like a triple double axel backflip or something into the sky. We were waiting for the leaves to, you know, stop folding. You know, it goes back to anthropomorphizing plant behaviors. So ROBERT: He says something about that's the wrong season. If you look at a root under a microscope, what you see is all these thousands of feelers like hairs on your head looking for water. ALVIN UBELL: And the tree happens to be a weeping willow. I mean, I -- it's a kind of Romanticism, I think. -- they spring way up high in the air. No. In this case, a little blue LED light. ROBERT: These sensitive hairs he argues, would probably be able to feel that tiny difference. Well, okay. Or even learn? MONICA GAGLIANO: So, you know, I'm in the dark. SUZANNE SIMARD: Yes, that seems to be what happens. ROBERT: So light is -- if you shine light on a plant you're, like, feeding it? And they, you know, they push each other away so they can get to the sky. An entirely different interpretation here bring the meat, but he rang the bell just looking at a.!, enhancing public understanding of Science and Technology in the modern world a weeks., right: yes, that fungi are actually very closely related to animals: sensitive! 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